Still running a dissy and old style oil pump, I went away from that and used the later anular pump, can the ECU you are using manage an ignition curve too? if so then theres a possibility you can run a timing disc, 36-1 would be much better than relying on clockwork, Flywheel, I melted the surface on a stock flywheel, but I was probably being a bit more extreme than you will be, most stock flywheels I have seen have Micro cracks in them, dosent seem to affect their integrity tho, eventually I went for a steel flywheel, but I was regularly buzzing round to 8k, for that same reasonI used a malleable pressure plate from Helix Clutches, as they are supposed to be less likely to explode, There is another timing option, on very late manual engines, there is a flywheel that has a stator ring next to the starter ring, you need to modify the bell housing for a sensor tho,
Still running a dissy and old style oil pump, I went away from that and used the later anular pump, can the ECU you are using manage an ignition curve too? if so then theres a possibility you can run a timing disc, 36-1 would be much better than relying on clockwork, Flywheel, I melted the surface on a stock flywheel, but I was probably being a bit more extreme than you will be, most stock flywheels I have seen have Micro cracks in them, dosent seem to affect their integrity tho, eventually I went for a steel flywheel, but I was regularly buzzing round to 8k, for that same reasonI used a malleable pressure plate from Helix Clutches, as they are supposed to be less likely to explode, There is another timing option, on very late manual engines, there is a flywheel that has a stator ring next to the starter ring, you need to modify the bell housing for a sensor tho,
Still running a dissy but a slightly different oil pump arrangement as using a JE front cover (see a few posts back). Re ignition curve, I need to do some more digging on whether it can or not (Haven't got that far yet) and really need to get my head into it properly.
Flywheel I'm waiting on RPi Engineering, they are getting some new ones machined and have experience with this gearbox/engine arrangement so we'll see what they come back with in terms of options. I've already got a Helix clutch and pressure plate in hand as that came with the gearbox but waiting on the flywheel before I piece it all together.
Will do some reading on the timing front and might come back to pick your brains Ian.
Post by grumpynorthener on Apr 27, 2021 7:32:25 GMT
With the nearside door being well out alignment regardless of adjustment - I fitted the offside door to check on how that fitted and to also check the datums
Its a better fit but an overwide gapping - the doors are being reskinned and the gaps cam always be adjusted up during the build
This area around the B post joint would have been lead loaded at the factory and has been removed with the paint removal process
Started to fit the front wing - these are ok but a non heritage / OE fit (from what I hear the OE panels are no better despite the higher price tag)
Only loosely fitted currently and needs more work today in order to bring it into alignment
Post by toomanyprojects on Apr 27, 2021 12:28:24 GMT
Hmmm interesting stuff. It does make you wonder how much lead etc. they had on them from the factory to hide things / help fitment. There certainly was a fair amount used where the roof joins on the c pillars and on the lower rear boot panel too.
Since we spoke Chris I've been doing some digging and it would appear that most of the dedicated marque forums are full of folk querying the fitment of replacement panels, heritage or otherwise which is frustrating to say the least. Even now there is apparently several mm difference in the heritage shells produced from one side to the other - seemingly asymmetry in cars of this era was more the norm than the exception and so perhaps they are keeping that tradition alive .
I did hear something a while back that did make me wonder whether true or not: back in the day when an MGB was built, the worker would offer up panels until they found a 'best fit' and use that panel. At the end of the week, the panels that did not fit anything were sold into the trade for spares.
Sorry Chris, none of which is probably any consolation to you.
Hmmm interesting stuff. It does make you wonder how much lead etc. they had on them from the factory to hide things / help fitment. There certainly was a fair amount used where the roof joins on the c pillars and on the lower rear boot panel too.
Since we spoke Chris I've been doing some digging and it would appear that most of the dedicated marque forums are full of folk querying the fitment of replacement panels, heritage or otherwise which is frustrating to say the least. Even now there is apparently several mm difference in the heritage shells produced from one side to the other - seemingly asymmetry in cars of this era was more the norm than the exception and so perhaps they are keeping that tradition alive .
I did hear something a while back that did make me wonder whether true or not: back in the day when an MGB was built, the worker would offer up panels until they found a 'best fit' and use that panel. At the end of the week, the panels that did not fit anything were sold into the trade for spares.
Sorry Chris, none of which is probably any consolation to you.
I have heard the very same story from countless sources that worked on a number of different production lines with different models and for different manufactures - its just has though this shell has had a thump up the rear end - but we know it hasn't - we know the shell was braced before the sill came off the nearside too - we also know that the gapping looked pretty decent before the shell was stripped - what we don't know is how much lead was used to make good the joints / seams / gapping (which was lost in the paint removal process) - looking at the remaining seams & joints I'd estimate a fair skip full
I did hear something a while back that did make me wonder whether true or not: back in the day when an MGB was built, the worker would offer up panels until they found a 'best fit' and use that panel.
I was told that on the Dolomite production line, Triumph workers had sets of three slightly different sized doors, and offered them up to each bodyshell as it came along and picked the set that fitted best. My previous Vauxhall project had front wings that were around 1/4" different in length from one side to the other, and I believe they were the factory originals.
This isn't to pick on Triumph or Vauxhall specifically, I imagine most mass-produced cars of the time had similar situations.
Oversize door skins, A friend who was an engineer at Abingdon, told me about door fit for many of the pre automated assembly cars, night shift workers in the Press Hall had a quota to produce per shift, bonus applicable too, If they had extra, they would get more money, the trick was to load 2 or 3 cut but not formed skins into the press, operate the machine and make 2 or 3 skins in one go, but each skin was bigger than the one "inside" this was quite common when to tooling was wearing out so bad fit could be blamed on worn tooling.
Oversize door skins, A friend who was an engineer at Abingdon, told me about door fit for many of the pre automated assembly cars, night shift workers in the Press Hall had a quota to produce per shift, bonus applicable too, If they had extra, they would get more money, the trick was to load 2 or 3 cut but not formed skins into the press, operate the machine and make 2 or 3 skins in one go, but each skin was bigger than the one "inside" this was quite common when to tooling was wearing out so bad fit could be blamed on worn tooling.
Ian - All makes a lot of sense - especially when you see my next batch of images / thread update - The door on the nearside that I was working on & had removed the sill on was simply miles out in the respect that the door was too small for the aperture - did some further checking of datums & fitted the front wing - well over a day of adjusting / altering / shimming / packing etc got me nowhere - Hence I came to the offside which still has the original sill etc all still in place - then hung the door / fitted the front wing etc (sanity check to ensure that nothing had moved out of place with the sill removed on the nearside) Net result is that the offside carries the same door too small for the aperture problem - so its quite evident that the apertures were built out to suit the door fit
Oversize door skins, A friend who was an engineer at Abingdon, told me about door fit for many of the pre automated assembly cars, night shift workers in the Press Hall had a quota to produce per shift, bonus applicable too, If they had extra, they would get more money, the trick was to load 2 or 3 cut but not formed skins into the press, operate the machine and make 2 or 3 skins in one go, but each skin was bigger than the one "inside" this was quite common when to tooling was wearing out so bad fit could be blamed on worn tooling.
Ian - All makes a lot of sense - especially when you see my next batch of images / thread update - The door on the nearside that I was working on & had removed the sill on was simply miles out in the respect that the door was too small for the aperture - did some further checking of datums & fitted the front wing - well over a day of adjusting / altering / shimming / packing etc got me nowhere - Hence I came to the offside which still has the original sill etc all still in place - then hung the door / fitted the front wing etc (sanity check to ensure that nothing had moved out of place with the sill removed on the nearside) Net result is that the offside carries the same door too small for the aperture problem - so its quite evident that the apertures were built out to suit the door fit
The doors were even know as A, B, and C, they were accepted as production "assistance" and kept on the side to help with bad fit.
Post by grumpynorthener on Apr 28, 2021 7:58:06 GMT
Spent some time achieving the best fit possible with the door & front wing on the offside
Still an overwide gapping between the door & rear wing
Sill gapping is fine
But again overwide between the front wing & door
Front wing is aligned back correctly to the bulkhead but this took a fair bit reworking to achieve with the pattern wing
Bolt aperture holes on the wings are on their limits to the point I'm going have to slightly open them up - this applies to both wings
The dictating & limiting factor on how far the front wings can go back in order to close the door gapping is both wing abutment fitting to the bulkhead along with the bonnet - place the wings too far back and the rear edge of the bonnet will be up against the bulkhead with no aperture clearance - otherwise the bonnet will be too far forward and out of alignment with the front of the wings
Striker plate has to be packed off in order to meet the door catch which confirms my theory that this area was made up by means of lead loading along with a few packing shims (still have the originals that came off when the bodyshell was stripped)
Front wing aligns with the original bolt aperture holes in the sill flange again dictating that wing is correctly aligned
More critical than anything is the horizontal alignment - the swage line follows through correctly
Whilst I have some work in front of me to achieve the correct vertical aperture gapping's these are much more easily sorted than having to alter any horizontal alignment
I don't want to make it sound too easy though - because its not - limiting factors have to be taken into account - such has close the gapping too much between the front wing and the door and the door edge will contact the wing upon opening / closing as the door travels through its radius and what might just give enough clearance during a dry build probably won't by the time the profiles are completed and the panels painted - Fun & Games
Ian - All makes a lot of sense - especially when you see my next batch of images / thread update - The door on the nearside that I was working on & had removed the sill on was simply miles out in the respect that the door was too small for the aperture - did some further checking of datums & fitted the front wing - well over a day of adjusting / altering / shimming / packing etc got me nowhere - Hence I came to the offside which still has the original sill etc all still in place - then hung the door / fitted the front wing etc (sanity check to ensure that nothing had moved out of place with the sill removed on the nearside) Net result is that the offside carries the same door too small for the aperture problem - so its quite evident that the apertures were built out to suit the door fit
The doors were even know as A, B, and C, they were accepted as production "assistance" and kept on the side to help with bad fit.
Makes todays vehicle assembly / production lines that use build jigs that are measurement tolerance tested daily along with laser alignment throughout the bodyshell & panel fitting virtually incomparable
Post by grumpynorthener on Apr 29, 2021 8:18:45 GMT
So with datums, reference & door fit available from the offside which is original - I returned to the nearside
Which to be fair is not that far away in gapping to what the offside is
Bottom of the rearward gapping is tight but readily sortable
Bottom of the door skin being detached from the door frame due to rust perforation explains the closing gapping onto the sill
Again the critical horizontal alignment is within the ballpark of where it needs to be
But the original flair out over the rear arch needs to be taken into account
So a way forward then - its pretty clear that the outer panels will have be worked in order to achieve the desired panel gapping but the critical horizontal alignment is all there - important in the respect that the sills are structural and quite obviously I want to ensure that they aligned to the body correctly and that I don't have to start unpicking / altering work once I have the sills welded insitu - the outer panels can now be removed and the nearside sill assembly can be welded into place
I can understand now why you see so many otherwise lovely looking B's with shady panel fit. Many simply wouldn't take the time at this stage to get the fit bob on.
Post by toomanyprojects on Apr 29, 2021 10:12:09 GMT
Exactly that, there is a reason Frontline cars sell for what they do, and they often have to deal with Heritage shells which are arguably worse than dealing with an original shell which is their preference to source and start with whenever possible. That speaks volumes in itself.
Post by grumpynorthener on Apr 29, 2021 20:39:03 GMT
Nearside door & front wing removed to allow access for the sill fitment
And all new sill sections removed again to allow access for final preparation works
The floorpan was loose in places where it should be attached to the inner sill flange
Made the use of bolts & repair washers to bring the floorpan tight up against the inner sill flange
Then welded the floorpan to the inner sill from the underside
I didn't want to weld the floorpan from the top side to the inner sill has it would have been difficult to dress the welds back with them being tight into the edge of the inner sill - I know none of this is seen once the underfelt & carpets are refitted but I'd rather keep the work has clean as possible where I can - by welding the underside none of what I've just completed is seen at all as its all covered by the castle rail - in fact I could have left the floorpan loose because this is welded to the castle rail once that is fitted - However although the shell is not being built to rally spec with fully welded seams & bracing - It is being fitted with a whole lot more beans than what the car was originally built to take - hence where I can add structural strength through additional welds etc - I will
Inner sill with the castle rail now in place & ready for welding - all cavities & flanges have been treated with a weld through primer
Whilst I can reach some areas with my spot welder I cant access all of the required welds
Most of the work will be plug welds - some from the underside
But most from the topside through the floor pan - I just need to dress the floor down slightly to achieve a tighter fit against the castle rail but ran out of workshop noisy time I also have a further idea of adding more strength to this area prior to the centre sill panel being welded insitu - but more about that tomorrow
Post by grumpynorthener on May 1, 2021 8:53:30 GMT
Plug welds underway
Trial fit of the jacking point support bracket
Then a refit of the centre sill panel to check that everything is still aligning - its critical when undertaking welding work that heat distortion is taken into account - there are ways of mitigating this but its it shouldn't be discounted in the slightest - I would much rather refit a panel several times throughout the welding process and maintain a check on a heat distortion than have to start altering things to make other panels fit
Underside rear of the castle rail which is both plug welded & spotwelded
Centre section of the rail is all plug welded from above through the floorpan
Front section is again a combination of welding methods
Floorpan welds dressed back apart from the front heel well area which is difficult to access whilst the bracing is in place
Jacking point support welded insitu
Now the MGB bodyshell has a pair of strong front chassis rails and a equally strong if not stronger rear pair of chassis rails but has no central chassis rails - in effect the sill box sections form the central chassis rails - given that a substantial increase is going made in the forms of the power plant & drive train on this shell we really need to think of minimising any flex to the central section of the car - hence where this original plate is left open ended to the castle rail - I've dressed it down and will weld it to the rail
And this open seam between the rail & the inner sill (although attached on the other side to the floorpan) I'm going to stitch weld down its length in order to add strength
Done
Cleaned & primed
A further trial panel fit to keep a check that we are heading in the right direction
Centre sill section prepped
Then fitted
The centre section / outer sill / inner sill would have been attached by a through spotweld at the factory - To add strength I'm doubling up by first spotwelding the central section to the inner sill then further spotwelding the outer sill back through the central & inner sills
Outer sill ready for fitting / welding - more later
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