Have you any opinion on "bridging" fillers - those that are filler with bits of fibreglass strands already mixed in? I have a repair to do on the corners of the fibreglass nosecone of my Firenza - someone has smoothed it to a rounded corner, when it shouldn't really be one. There's probably 5mm (or maybe a little more) missing off the corner that I need to reinstate somehow. I had a look through this thread and I can see talk of several grades of polyester filler, but no mention of this stuff.
I've also thought of using it for some of the filling that I'll need to do on the project, and the main reason for that is I was told that the bridging filler is waterproof, and the normal polyester filler is not. In talking recently to a local painter, he told me the opposite.
And finally on filling - primer first, then filler, or filler onto bare metal and then prime over it? I'd have thought the latter, but the issue then is different rates of shrinkage causing marks in the final finish. If I fill directly to bare metal, I'd be worried about damp getting through and causing trouble underneath it all.
I'd love to lead-load some of the areas as per the recent discussion in the Jowett 10 thread, but I suspect a 5' long join along my rear quarter, above the swage line, isn't the place to be learning the technique.
Have you any opinion on "bridging" fillers - those that are filler with bits of fibreglass strands already mixed in? I have a repair to do on the corners of the fibreglass nosecone of my Firenza - someone has smoothed it to a rounded corner, when it shouldn't really be one. There's probably 5mm (or maybe a little more) missing off the corner that I need to reinstate somehow. I had a look through this thread and I can see talk of several grades of polyester filler, but no mention of this stuff.
I've also thought of using it for some of the filling that I'll need to do on the project, and the main reason for that is I was told that the bridging filler is waterproof, and the normal polyester filler is not. In talking recently to a local painter, he told me the opposite.
And finally on filling - primer first, then filler, or filler onto bare metal and then prime over it? I'd have thought the latter, but the issue then is different rates of shrinkage causing marks in the final finish. If I fill directly to bare metal, I'd be worried about damp getting through and causing trouble underneath it all.
I'd love to lead-load some of the areas as per the recent discussion in the Jowett 10 thread, but I suspect a 5' long join along my rear quarter, above the swage line, isn't the place to be learning the technique.
Bridging fillers in general aren't discussed because I really don't to use them for the purpose intended i.e. bodging rust perforation in vehicle bodywork - Shock Horror Alert: But I do keep a tin of it in my stores - to use exactly for the purpose that you describe - minor fibreglass repairs to spoilers / nose cones / fibreglass panels etc and it will be fine for what you outline / intend - No its not waterproof either
Good quality filler to bare metal will be fine - the modern / good quality fillers don't shrink if used correctly i.e. mixed correctly with the recommended hardener and not applied over the top of paint surfaces / only applied to bare metal - personally if you are worried about damp effecting the filler I'd recommend waiting a little while until the better / dryer weather arrives then start with the filling / profiling process - I would recommend that you undertake this on a panel by panel basis and has you complete each panel then applying the primer with immediate effect - 'Faff' I know but it then protects the panel and the hard work that you have put into it and prevents the soul destroying effect of defective paint directly caused by damp / poor preparation. You need to consider what primer you use though - solvent based ones are porous and absorb water as do some 2 pack primers - a good quality 2 pack epoxy primer wont and will give you required protection from a damp atmosphere - However, using / applying / spraying 2 pack products is another entire can of worms from a health & safety prospective but there are safe use ways around it - let me know when you need a 'How To' (assuming that you don't already know - apologies if you do) - good luck - Chris
Thanks. I think my concern over waterproof-ness was more about the car getting a stonechip later on in life, and allowing moisture to penetrate downwards. A long shot, and a reason to keep on top of stonechips.
As for primer, I was thinking that maybe I'd roller / brush it on and then flat it. I'm not going to paint this car because I want a better finish than I can do with cellulose, but I'm hoping to do the lower layers to keep the cost down. I sprayed Epoxy onto the last car without any real issues (other than my technique / lack of experience) so I might relent on this, but I don't think so.
Thanks. I think my concern over waterproof-ness was more about the car getting a stonechip later on in life, and allowing moisture to penetrate downwards. A long shot, and a reason to keep on top of stonechips.
As for primer, I was thinking that maybe I'd roller / brush it on and then flat it. I'm not going to paint this car because I want a better finish than I can do with cellulose, but I'm hoping to do the lower layers to keep the cost down. I sprayed Epoxy onto the last car without any real issues (other than my technique / lack of experience) so I might relent on this, but I don't think so.
Roller application is far better than brush but you will need a small brush for the areas that the roller cant access - I would recommend the use of a gloss short pile mini roller - quite a lot of pro bodyshops utilise this method - ideally you still need a decent charcoal filter type mask - gloves are essential but other than that with the area well ventilated you will be fine - use a dark guide coat when you come to block it back - providing its a good quality epoxy primer it will block back fine by hand / dry
I have an issue that I keep running into, wondering if anyone can offer any advice please. I'm trying to make a repair section for the back end of a rear quarter panel, where it closes the gap to the rear valance. I've got this far with it:
It's not bad, but the top edge of it on the corner is too far "out". If that top edge lines up with the rest of the panel, then the section further down will be too far "in", it won't have the proper curved profile that is needed to make it look right. On this image
the yellow lines show roughly where it should be.
As you can see, I've had a go with a shrinker along the top edge to try to bring it in, but that's tricky to do on a curved edge and just leads to me then having to re-curve it, and get lots more marks in the metal.
Anyone have suggestions on what I can do to improve the shape please?
The annoying thing is that I've made one for the other side, and it's much, much better, and I've made them before with reasonable results. I've got a pair of fibreglass "casts" that I put the repair panel in and try to feel how far the two are away from each other, and the top edge is forcing the centre of the corner to be too flat. I wondered whether it might be time to ask for advice in case there's something I'm missing, rather than just keep bashing at it.
Sorry, I meant to add what I have - deep throat shrinker, basic fabricated English wheel (18", box section frame, small wheels) some hammers and dollies but not a shrinking hammer.
When you say "pull that into shape", the issue I have is not really knowing what that means. I can stick the dolly under it and hammer around it, but it's all a bit random. I've watched a few videos of people doing similar things, indeed the reason I bought the deep throat shrinker was to be able to do stuff like this and I watched someone making this kind of thing ("cab corner" seems to be the term) and it seemed easy.
It's only 1mm steel, I don't think I'm trying to do something impossible, it's just not going the way I hoped.
This is the video I watched before I bought the shrinker - his seems to work much better than mine does, though I expect it's his 30+ years experience too.
I had a bit of a play replicating the shape in the video, and I can get some of it with my shrinker, but it appears that the shape of the frame limits the kind of curve I can do. In theory that might not matter, but I'll play some more tomorrow.
I have watched a lot of the videos Lazze makes when I bought my shrinker/stretcher and he makes it look so easy.
I think the secret for what you are trying to do is the downward bending pressure when you first use the shrinker like he showed in your video link if you want to get the shape closer to your dotted line. A few more tries and you will get there.
I think you're right, the problem is anyone doing these videos makes it look really easy. I had a quick go at a corner like he has done and it's OK, but I think this is a limiting factor:
The section near the yellow line alters the rate of curve I can get before it starts to hit the body of the machine. His shrinker doesn't have that extra section there - it's noticeably smaller than mine, but probably more useful. Mine also takes a lot more effort to do any kind of shrink, I wonder if that's because it's not a foot-pedal one, and because the handle is quite far away from the workpiece. My shrinker jaws are also rectangular, where his are more of an oval shape, which would be much more useful for this sort of stuff.
I'm reasonably sure I can keep randomly hitting it until it gets somewhere near usable, I'm just trying to figure out how to know what to do so I can replicate it. I guess part of the issue is that I don't do stuff like this very often, so by the time I come to it again, I've forgotten how I did it. No excuse here, though, I did the other side on Friday and it seems to be OK.
Is it worth fabricating in two smaller parts to enable your shrinker to fit? What about going old school with your shrinking? Put tucks in around the edge to get your shape then lock them in and dress them down?
It's a panel I'm making for someone else, so I'm trying to avoid making it in two pieces, just because he can do that himself, or he can cut vees out and weld them up. I have considering making a tucking fork, that's another option.
Can any of you kind people help me with a few paint questions?
After a few years of bashing aluminium into shape and screwing my bag of bits back together again I’m at the point where I need to look at painting options and would appreciate some sage advice from those who know more about these things than I do.
I have to admit the car in question is a another Jowett Jupiter, sorry. The scuttle is made of steel so this has had a lot of welding, rust removal and then Deox treatment. This week I borrowed an air mask and gave it a couple of coats of two pack epoxy primer, nasty stuff but it worked. My problem is the rest of the body which is an aluminium alloy called Birmabright (possibly) and has been stripped back to bare metal.
As I understand things I need an etch primer before I use a high build primer, is this correct? Is there such a thing as a high build etch primer? Is it possible to do this with a single pack paint? I’d rather not use 2K ever again if I can help it.
Can anyone recommend a brand / product for a 1K etch primer filler or individual etch primer and high build primer?
I haven’t made a decision on a top coat yet, they were cellulose from the factory but someone suggested a direct to gloss paint, unfortunately that was in the middle of a different conversation and I didn’t get any more info before he left. I’ve got a large compressor, filter, water trap and HVLP setup so can probably squirt almost anything so long as it doesn’t try to kill me in the process.
Post by grumpynorthener on Apr 7, 2024 11:09:48 GMT
Rich - Dealing with your questions in sequence and detailed using my own methods & preferred materials along with reasoning and why certain processes are no longer utilised
You could go down the old school route of etch + solvent based air drying primer (cellulose) - The curing / drying times for this is lengthy and not as forgiving as the modern 2 pack methods - Its also subject to shrinkage - all combined reasons why the refinishing trade see it as outdated and don't particularly favour it
Before applying anything further to the body panels I would ensure that all preparation is completed - repairs / undulations / defects / damage is profiled using a high quality body filler - All areas are abrasion keyed / clean & degreased - You could then apply a etching primer (Equally nasty stuff it contains an acid to create the adhesion) over which you can apply a solvent based high build primer - it will require several coats + guide coat - both are air drying - The high build primer will require a light guide coat then flatting back by hand with wet & dry
I use a different route once I've completed the panel preparation and apply a 2 pack polyester high build primer - this adheres directly to alloy / steel surfaces without the requirement for etching primer to be applied - It cures within 4 - 6 hours - guide coat applied and can be sanded back with P320* dry by machine initially then gone over by hand (still dry) - Although I apply it by spray (You will need a 2.0 gun needle / cap set up) You can & many do - apply by it by mini roller / brush - Pretty sure if you delve into You tube that you will find some tutorials - you still need a decent mask but not necessarily air fed - The 2 pack primer will cure with a riven / mottled finish but sands back easily with a guide coat by machine / hand - The 2 pack primers fill areas much more readily and are universally forgiving - Possibly worth experimenting with one panel first i.e. Spare wheel door
* Dependant on final finish
I use various trade products Kent Europe being a favourite but is only available to the trade - I can obtain a 2 pack high build primer for you and stick it in the post if you wish - The alternative is to find yourself a automotive paint factor in your neck of the woods - Ideally a Lechler stockist or a E Bay / Amazon search (some info below) The product is Lechler Green TI Primer (comes in 4 different colours use the colour shade nearest to your planned final colour choice)
Other suppliers / manufactures will all stock / hold versions of the above product - quality of which I cant vouch for - I only use what I consider to work best for me / is economical in pricing whilst providing better quality / long term / durable results (You can run round in circles with what's best / do - don't use this advice from others along with the fact there's a mountain of rubbish miracle cure paint products with several bibles full of rubbish recommendations / assumptions available through various web based media platforms) Obviously I ignore them
Direct to gloss paints are a 2 pack finish - highly durable - quite forgiving - easy to apply - great coverage - high quality finish - cost effective BUT its still 2 pack - only good for solid colour finishes (None metallic)
Cellulose - In todays book is hard work - less forgiving than 2 pack but a single pack air drying final finish requiring a more detailed preparation i.e. flat wet & dry P600 rather than dry sand P320 for the 2 pack - Much longer drying times alongside a finish that takes longer to polish to a gloss and is less durable to stone chips etc - It will also shadow / defect / shrink much more easily than a 2 pack paint
Metallic finishes - Are now a combination of the above - The colour is applied as a base coat in a solvent finish* and dries to a matt over which a clear 2 pack lacquer is applied (Can also be used for solid colours)
* Also available as a water based colour coat that also dries matt - Not practically suitable for the restoration market although some will advocate that its fantastic - I have experience of it buts it's not something that I'd personally recommend - This also requires a 2 pack lacquer application
Can I suggest that you read through the pages of Garth's Jupiter restoration that I undertook in particular the paint refinishing pages (link below)- as you read through make some notes - you can then list your notes / further questions here and I'll respond with answers - equally I'm quite happy for you to call me directly if you want to chat through the processes - For anyone else reading that is planning on undertaking their paintwork the same offer applies - Patience is always key to the right results with paint but don't be put off track of having a go - you don't need fancy paint booths or massive facilities
Many thanks, plenty to go at there, I'll have a read of the thread you suggested and do a bit more learning. It does sound like 2K is the best option so I might need to have a re-think. There is a body shop a few miles away that did a Jupiter recently and it looks very good, it wasn't silly money and most of the cost was removing all the existing trim which isn't an issue for me as I haven't fitted any.
I did sort of want to do the paint myself as I've done everything else and I want to stand back one day and say "I did that" but if it's going to look like a dogs dinner I might need to admit some things are best left to the experts.
Food for thought, I'll have a 'mull' during the week.
Many thanks, plenty to go at there, I'll have a read of the thread you suggested and do a bit more learning. It does sound like 2K is the best option so I might need to have a re-think. There is a body shop a few miles away that did a Jupiter recently and it looks very good, it wasn't silly money and most of the cost was removing all the existing trim which isn't an issue for me as I haven't fitted any.
I did sort of want to do the paint myself as I've done everything else and I want to stand back one day and say "I did that" but if it's going to look like a dogs dinner I might need to admit some things are best left to the experts.
Food for thought, I'll have a 'mull' during the week.
The alternative is to do as much as you can even undertaking the primer coats before sending it to a bodyshop for final prep & paint - If that's all that they are doing it shouldn't run to a hideous amount of money - But it all depends upon how realistic owners are - you can readily expend several hundred on the primer & paint materials alone
Agreed, and that is the quandary, how much do I do? This is a one of ninety MK1a’s and I always wanted a race car like my fathers (he won’t give me his yet!). It’s 71 years old (car not father, he is older) and was crashed before I bought it, an ex-Aston Martin guy did the aluminium body work to get it straight for me back in the late 80’s before it went into storage, I was only 17 when I bought the car for £500. Then 35 ish years of ‘sex, drugs and rock n roll’ kept me fairly occupied until I decided to pull my finger out and finish the Jupiter. I’m thinking do the prep works as you suggested and let someone else do the top coat but accept that what I get is just what it is.
Thanks for the information and I hope this helps others that read the forum for advice. I'll update this thread as I move onwards.
Are there any issues with using a product such as Hydrate 80 on a panel that will be painted with top coat? I've used it quite a lot under the car on some areas, but they'll all be covered in a fairly heavy duty paint and then stonechip covering.
Are there any issues with using a product such as Hydrate 80 on a panel that will be painted with top coat? I've used it quite a lot under the car on some areas, but they'll all be covered in a fairly heavy duty paint and then stonechip covering.
Absolutely no problems in the slightest and I use it on a very regular basis exactly for this - just a couple of golden rules - ensure that its cured first (can be be accelerated with a heat gun to fully dry in few minutes) and ensure that you key / abrade the Hydrate 80 before applying any further paint coverings