Ive only had the pleasure of working on one dipped shell, its so nice working with clean metal even if it is frilly in places!
I cant remember which company dipped it but there were issues like this picture of the roof inside, it looks like it had a big bubble of air trapped and the treatment wasn't great, unfortunately I didn't see it come back after the 2nd dip & primer after I had carried out the metal work, Oh and they lost some bits!
Chris - I notice that you use a selection of Dinitrol products for protection. For cavities, ML & 1000. What is the difference between them please, and also between 1000 & 3125. When would you use one in favour of tbe other?
Chris - I notice that you use a selection of Dinitrol products for protection. For cavities, ML & 1000. What is the difference between them please, and also between 1000 & 3125. When would you use one in favour of tbe other?
I use 4941 for underbody protection in unprotected areas - i.e. under wing / chassis / floor pan etc - this is a dark brown underbody wax that will absorb / provide impact protection from road debris / minor stone impact etc - ML is cavity wax for injection into cavities & box sections / inside of door skins etc - 3125 is a lower grade of 4941 - 1000 is the clear / transparent version of ML which is brown in colour - hence the 1000 is ideal in viewed areas such as door pillars / under bonnet etc
Thanks Chris - I am looking for something to use on my hardtop (eventually) but it will be quite near the headlining and don't want it to stain so the 1000 sounds like the best option.
Thanks Chris - I am looking for something to use on my hardtop (eventually) but it will be quite near the headlining and don't want it to stain so the 1000 sounds like the best option.
1000 is what I would recommend - its available in aerosol too
What strikey says above but a splash of boiled linseed oil on a cloth works too
Well I tried this out today and I'm amazed at the results with the linseed oil. I did have to lather it on and give it a good rub as it's textured plastic and seemed to be soaking it up. Don't know if that's a thing with plastics or not? Before and after pics.
Be interesting to see the longevity of it compared to the Meguiars which wasn't great. Much cheaper anyway so that's a winner.
Working my way through the valeting box to find something to use on swmbos x3 (another with masses of black trim) that doesn't rain streak. The colour is fine its just the gloss finish i want to keep. Tried autoglym vinyl & trim shine... son of a gun...armorall... all the usual suspects but none are performing how i would like.
Chris - Thanks for the 'heads up' about the dinitrol 1000. A couple of extra questions.. 1. Do you know if the stuff in the schutz gun cartridges is the same as the aerosols, or is the aerosol thinned more due to the nature of the spray head (as it is for top coat aerosols)? 2. Also (cheapskate here, no compressor), could it be applied with a cheap garden sprayer if thinned, warmed and used with a lance adapter, obviously decanting it out of the schutz cartridge? 3. What is the best primer to use for spot priming an area rubbed through when sanding back. I know that you use Kent construction primer, but what is the best available to the amateur in an aerosol, or am I best to mix a small amount of 2k primer and brushing it over?
3. What is the best primer to use for spot priming an area rubbed through when sanding back. I know that you use Kent construction primer, but what is the best available to the amateur in an aerosol, or am I best to mix a small amount of 2k primer and brushing it over?
Thanks.
I've been using a can of this Upol #3 spot primer. Goes on very thin, which is what you need at the final stage.
Chris - Thanks for the 'heads up' about the dinitrol 1000. A couple of extra questions.. 1. Do you know if the stuff in the schutz gun cartridges is the same as the aerosols, or is the aerosol thinned more due to the nature of the spray head (as it is for top coat aerosols)? 2. Also (cheapskate here, no compressor), could it be applied with a cheap garden sprayer if thinned, warmed and used with a lance adapter, obviously decanting it out of the schutz cartridge? 3. What is the best primer to use for spot priming an area rubbed through when sanding back. I know that you use Kent construction primer, but what is the best available to the amateur in an aerosol, or am I best to mix a small amount of 2k primer and brushing it over?
Thanks.
moglite has answered your spot primer question - I use a similar spot primer product but supplied by Kent Industries - the Dinitrol 1000 is pretty thin to start with so I doubt that its thinned for aerosol use - and quite probably could has you state be applied with adapted garden sprayer - especially if you warm it first in order to gain a more fluid viscosity (it sets to a wax finish over a period of days) - I would strongly advise taping over any holes / apertures before spraying it into the cavities and leave them taped for a few days whilst the product solidifies
Chris - A simple question which I will, strangely, answer before asking!!
I have read the safety/instruction sheets which says the answer to my question is 60 minutes, but, in the real world, what is the actual length of time that you can leave mixed Kent panel bond in the mixing tube and it still be useable?
Might be a strange question but I have numerous small repair panels to bond and rivet, all of which will be very fidly to place. So I wondered what is the real length of time that I have, in a cool garage, between expelling mixed bond from the tube for the first repair piece, and having to get on with the next one, before the bond in the mixing tube goes past its 'use by' time. Also will use in a low temperature affect the quality of the bond?
Chris - A simple question which I will, strangely, answer before asking!!
I have read the safety/instruction sheets which says the answer to my question is 60 minutes, but, in the real world, what is the actual length of time that you can leave mixed Kent panel bond in the mixing tube and it still be useable?
Might be a strange question but I have numerous small repair panels to bond and rivet, all of which will be very fidly to place. So I wondered what is the real length of time that I have, in a cool garage, between expelling mixed bond from the tube for the first repair piece, and having to get on with the next one, before the bond in the mixing tube goes past its 'use by' time. Also will use in a low temperature affect the quality of the bond?
I'd say a hour is going to be your limit - when I was using it this summer on the Jupiter I could feel it starting to tighten up in the nozzle after 10 mins or so but that was in 25c + temperatures - what I do is prep several areas - make up the the repair sections then trial fit everything - drill & countersink for the rivets if I'm using them - have everything to hand for clamping up - even trial clamping to ensure that I don't waste any time adjusting the clamp jaws etc then hit everything in a few batches therefore only using one or two nozzles rather than bonding each repair area on a piecemeal basis - don't think that the lower temperatures are going to effect you much - However a lot of cross polymer linking / catalyst reactions in paint & adhesives fail to occur at sub 5c due to the way that the molecular structure works (I'm no scientist but that's how's been explained to me previously the manufactures technical team reps) for this reason I would always recommend a workshop temperature above 10c when undertaking this type of work
Chris - Thanks. That tells me everything that I needed to know. I am hoping to do each piece as quickly as possible and then on to the next so I can keep the bond moving along the nozzle. Everything has been trial fitted drilled etc and I intend to make sure that some wood is cut to the correct size and lined with onion board paper to act as vice jaws when clamping and reduce the number of clamps needed.. I hope that the paper will stop the bond bonding my clamps to the panel!! I will dig out the heater for the garage. Never did line the garage doors with insulation as you have done with yours and its very chilly in there at the moment.
I had my MK2 Jag blasted at a place in Worcester, it was £850 for the shell inside and out and underneath (but not any of the panels which I did by hand). They collected and delivered if for this price (i'm around 20 miles away).
The downside of blasting as Grumpynortherner has pointed out is there is a risk of distortion, you also have to strip the underseal etc. off by hand and it doesn't get into box sections like the dipping process does.
On the other hand i've seen three cars that have been dipped where the company who did it didn't get all the chemicals out and they went really rusty around the seams (think sunken shop anchor chain rusty!).
I've always had good results with blasting and it seems to be a lot cheaper than dipping.
I had my MK2 Jag blasted at a place in Worcester, it was £850 for the shell inside and out and underneath (but not any of the panels which I did by hand). They collected and delivered if for this price (i'm around 20 miles away).
The downside of blasting as Grumpynortherner has pointed out is there is a risk of distortion, you also have to strip the underseal etc. off by hand and it doesn't get into box sections like the dipping process does.
On the other hand i've seen three cars that have been dipped where the company who did it didn't get all the chemicals out and they went really rusty around the seams (think sunken shop anchor chain rusty!).
I've always had good results with blasting and it seems to be a lot cheaper than dipping.
Some very valid points made here - however its all down to who you trust with your work - the blasting holds way too many downsides for my liking - it simply cant access the hidden areas of box sections & cavities and these can & do continue to hold / harbour rust long after the completion of an extensive restoration - good blasters that take their time, utilise the correct grades of media and operate at reduced pressures to mitigate panel distortion & damage are increasingly far & between - the vast majority of blasters just see your car shell & panels as a lump of metal - they don't care and just want your lump of rusty metal in, done & gone - its only afterwards that the owner discovers the downsides of this process - its not say I don't use blasting processes - I do but on smaller items or heavier components such has chassis & suspension components but not panels or bodyshells - Interestingly the company that I use for my blasting refuses to undertake bodyshells & large panels - they fully understand what the limitations of the process are and its more trouble than what its worth as far as they are concerned.
Dipping process - again all its down to who you want to trust with your work - I recently changed my specialist from the previous company that I used whom had become way too slow with turn around times / losing parts / unresponsive to E Mails and reluctant to undertake mixed media panels (alloy / steel composite) which for one of the vehicles that I specialise in (Jowett Jupiter) is critical - I was approached by a smaller company at the NEC Classic Car Show last year whom assured me that they could offer a high quality service and undertake the composite panels too - although they were another 120 miles further North than my previous specialist - so after some careful research I decided to give them a go
I delivered them this
But in a stripped form
And 10 days later collected this
They stripped all the alloy & composite panels, the steel bulkhead & rear super structure then primed them in a electrostatic korroprime - they then immersed dipped the space frame tube chassis which not only removed 66 years of rust ingress from the external faces of the tubes but also the internal faces which no other process could possibly achieve - they then primed & baked the chassis with the priming system previously outlined - they made an excellent job of the work leaving both myself & my client highly delighted
The downside of dipping is also highlighted above in the blasting process - most process dippers want your car in & out quickly - they don't care if the seams start to rust once you have completed your restoration where they have cut corners and not washed, nuturalised & oven dried the bodyshell & panels after dipping - you sign a disclaimer - see your car back to bare metal / primer and only learn afterwards - same in every market there's some good guys and awful lot of bad guys
Costs then
Blasting for your shell £850 but no loose panels - lets add them in or increase the cost to take into account that you have undertaken yourself + abrasives / paint stripper / time - lets allow some time for removing the underseal - now on commercial rates there's readily £500 + of additional work there so you are at £1350 - blasted externally but no access to cavities / box sections & unprimed - you may want to factor in any additional works with panel distortion too
Dipping for the Jupiter above - all panels whistle clean inside & out, all steel panels, chassis & loose steel parts returned in a high quality primer - absolutely no panel distortion - other than deliver the car & panels I haven't had to undertake any removal of underseals etc - cost £1500 + vat = £1800 - downside is that its a 400 mile round trip x twice but I always schedule my trips to ensure in the main I don't tow a empty trailer - I always have a forward or return load planned and can therefore split the costs
So where is the better deal - blasting for me only does 75% of the job - add another £500 to the blasting price for getting the shell devoid of blasting grit and into primer and you are at £1850 - now £50 in excess of the dipping cost which in my book has done a better job
I'm not being critical (although it may appear so) but until all the pros & cons of each process is fully understood its difficult to conclude - The greatest risk from both processes again is down to the fact that there's a few really good dedicated business offering services of this nature and there's awful lot of others that specialise in providing abysmally poor quality services
Chris - If that was the stripped body that I saw on the trailer when we met at the Lymm M6 service station earlier in the year, then it looked, in my quick glance over, to be a superb job, and I wouldn't hesitate to use the same company if even I needed to.
Chris - If that was the stripped body that I saw on the trailer when we met at the Lymm M6 service station earlier in the year, then it looked, in my quick glance over, to be a superb job, and I wouldn't hesitate to use the same company if even I needed to.
The very same car en route back to Grumpy Towers from the dipping process - I now have a client / fellow BMR member with 2 vehicles booked in with the same dipping company along some minor stuff of mine en route to them
Post by grumpynorthener on Nov 3, 2020 11:54:41 GMT
Polyester fillers then - there's a load of them in the market - some good - some appalling - like most things you get what you pay for - downside of fillers is that they gain a bad reputation through misuse - its not intended for structural use or the substitution of metal where it no longer exists - Used correctly its perfect for correcting body profiles & contours after repairs have been made to the panelwork - I'm going to break this down into stages in order to explain the processes / materials involved
I use 3 products - U Pol's Fantastic is good lightweight base filler suitable for medium to small depth filling (3 litre tin - £25 ish) - now it all depends upon what you term as medium depth but in my book I will always attempt to correct the panel as much as possible to the original profile - ideally less than 5mm tolerance filling depth - but this is a skill in its self and its not always about attempting to profile the panel with a hammer & dolly - work the panel too much and you will stretch the metal and create more problems than enough - likewise if you attempt to dress the panel area with grinders etc you may well overthin the metal and leave it structurally deficient / weak - its much better to leave the panel work sound with structural integrity - In a area of repair you need the panel slightly dressed down / inwards / concave and use the filler to bring the area up to profile rather than the repair area be proud / convex then attempt to fill panel areas around it in order to bring them into profile with high spot on the panel - sounds obvious but its not always that easy until profiles are explained - some beginner's / novices think that panel damage will just disappear with a simple skim of filler when in reality nothing could be further from the truth
When mixing always use a clean surface / clean spreader etc - I use one spreader for mixing and another for applying it - always mix the filler / hardener thoroughly - mixing across the surface - don't whip up as this introduces air into the mixed filler - I use a purpose made mixing board - sometimes called onion boards (£5 - £7) - you just dispose of the sheet once you are finished with it - leaving a clean sheet for your next batch - mixing is normally on a ratio of between 2% - 4% hardener to filler (read the recommendations for the filler type that you are using) you may have to adjust slightly in high / low temperatures - never mix more than what you can sensibly apply / work at any one time - tedious that it maybe its much better to work in small batches than attempt larger batches - remember that once mixed its starting to cure - you only have short period of time to apply it - the neater its applied the easier it is to sand back - but this all comes with practice
Should you have several areas that you are filling from one mixing batch its a good practice to assess them immediately prior to mixing - I mark mine up with pencil where required - areas of filling should be dry, clean, free from grease & oil contaminates and suitably abraded - I would always recommend filling from a bare metal surface where possible - the vast majority of modern polyester fillers are all suitable for bare metal application and do not have be applied to a primed surface (although many would have you believe otherwise)
Cleaning up - I use a old plastic chopping board that Mrs GN was throwing out - I put the dirty spreaders on the board and a splash of cellulose thinners leave them 30 secs then clean them off with a cloth - works every time
Worked at and with practice great results can be achieved with fillers - but its a mind numbingly boring task with the sanding back - you need to keep at with your eye on the ball - loose patience & let the standards slip will only result in the painted surface looking dreadful no matter how shiny the paint is
Gloves are a very good idea when handling fillers / sanding back - personally I like the thin material type with a latex face - not only do they protect your hands from the filler but a gloved hand can detect undulations in a panel / filled surface far better than the bare hand can - back later with the further stages & material supplier recommendations
Going over the RHS donor panel for the XK8 I noticed a small bubble - which of course wasn't that small, but appears to be the only issue on the panel. I kept sanding and chipping from the inside and stripped out the seam sealer until I think I am back to solid.
I am loath to start chopping and replacing as it is a very complex shape, and unfortunately the car panel is rusted in exactly the same place - but 20 x worse. What would be your recommendation for repair and prep for paint?
Outside after abrading back and rust removal from the inside.